Donald Trump thinks millions of foreigners voted illegally for his rival. Nicolás Maduro believes inflation is unrelated to monetary aggregates and is instead induced by business interests arrayed against him.

Both claims are false. That almost goes without saying. What’s more interesting is that they’re false in a specific kind of way. They’re transparently false. They’re false in a way that anyone with a minimal capacity to evaluate evidence and think critically can spot within seconds. Both claims are put forward not just in the absence of evidence to support them, but revelling in that absence. Both claims wear their own baselessness as a badge of pride, a statement of identity, a principio de vida.

Donald Trump believes millions of foreigners voted illegally for his rival because Alex Jones told him so. Nicolás Maduro believes inflation is unrelated to monetary aggregates and is instead by business interests arrayed against him because Alfredo Serrano told him so.

Alex Jones and Alfredo Serrano are straight-up charlatans — snake oil salesmen with long track records of making barely coherent, demonstrably false statements on complex matters they plainly haven’t begun to grasp.

Believing — and being seen to believe — Alex Jones is a statement of identity for Donald Trump.

The most notable thing we learn when we find out Donald Trump thinks millions of people voted illegally for his rival is that he lacks the minimal, rock-bottom capacity for critical thought it takes to spot Alex Jones as a charlatan.

The most notable thing we learn when we find out Nicolás Maduro thinks inflation is induced by business interests arrayed against him is that he lacks the minimal, rock-bottom capacity for critical thought it takes to spot Alfredo Serrano as a charlatan.

Believing — and being seen to believe — Alex Jones is a statement of identity for Donald Trump. Because Donald Trump has constructed his political identity in opposition to the kinds of people who evaluate Alex Jones claims, note the galloping absence of evidence to back them, roll their eyes and pronounce him a transparent fraud. You know who they are…the coastal elites, the globalists, the latté-sipping, NYT-reading smug assholes who turn out to moonlight as the people who have some semblance of an idea WTF they’re talking about.

Believing — and being seen to believe — Alfredo Serrano is a statement of identity for Nicolás Maduro. Because Nicolás Maduro has constructed his political identity in opposition to the kinds of people who evaluate Alfredo Serrano’s claims, note the galloping absence of evidence to back them, roll their eyes and pronounce him a transparent fraud. You know who they are…the vacas sagradas, the pelucones, the scotch-sipping, Caracas Chronicles-reading smug assholes who turn out to moonlight as the people who have some semblance of an idea WTF they’re talking about.

The point of believing them is annoying us. That’s the purpose of the exercise: declaring independence from — hell, contempt for — anyone with a minimal capacity for critical thought, for evaluating evidence with a modicum of sophistication, for thinking, coño.

It’s a fantastically dangerous game the gringos are playing now. We should know.

87 COMMENTS

  1. We know for a fact that illegal voting didn’t occur in the U.S. because CNN has told us so. There is no reason for anyone to look into it.Nothing to see here, move along.

    • You know where you can find the perfect intersection of Trumpism and Chavismo? RT (Russia Today). There, when you are not enjoying the commentary of Eva Gollinger on American plots to overthrow the Maduro regime, you can pretty much get the Trump line on all the other great conspiracy theories that CNN has failed to buy into.

      RT: where the Venezuelan socialist fever swamp meets the American alt-right. No kidding. We will be seeing more of it and less of CNN in the future, don’t you worry.

    • Well said, Anon…if you are for thinking that misses the point. If you claim that there is voting fraud, you better come up with some shred of evidence. Put another way, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That, my friend, was one of the points of the post.

      • Driver’s licenses are routinely issued to undocumented democrats in the US. Many states allow voters to use a driver’s license as their form of ID for voting.

        Undocumented democrats do indeed vote in the US. I don’t know that there are millions of them, but it happens. That even one can do so is a travesty.

    • You can’t prove a negative. CNN doesn’t have to prove that illegal voting did not occur, CNN is not a court of law to begin with. And in court you don’t have to prove you didn’t come a crime either, is the other way around. If there is evidence-supported claim about illegal voting serious media will report it.

      • It’s the kind of thing that if you’ve managed to become a full-grown adult without having grasped it, you’re probably not gonna cuz a blog explains it…

  2. https://twitter.com/NicmerEvans/status/800508333144809472

    Not that I agree with Nicmer Evans on everything, I don’t, but I have seen no refutation of the claim that he, Giordano, and others make regarding a massive embezzlement that needs to be undone. I found it deplorable that Evans’ party was blocked from participating in the December legislative vote.

    Are Evans, Giordano and the others just Venezuela’s version of Alex Jones or are they saying something worth considering and debating?

    https://youtu.be/2WgKmbEKEM0

    • What he is saying is absolutely true. However, the private sector he is talking about are all Enchufados, buddies with the government, mostly high ranking military but yes a few others all with something in common: They know someone who gets them access to those preferential dollars at 10 (used to be 6.3). Enchufados. Everyone else is locked down. So all those inchufados, (could have been you or me if we knew the right person) had an opportunity to get in on the import business and start making money exactly as he described. Not to mention importing stuff here is a nightmare, you HAVE to have HEAVY contacts in the Seniat who facilitate the imports, and sign off that you actually brought 500 containers of food instead of 500 containers of straight up garbage or rotten shit and then threw them away after just so you can continue to jump through all the legal hoops to do it all again.
      Like flipping a house but with a lot less work and a way better mark up. Who’s not going to take advantage of that if they can. We’re crossed with one of the most vile animals on the earth: ever watch a discovery program on Monkeys? We are prone to corruption, inherent to do whatever is best for us, egocentrism rules, especially here in Wonderland.

  3. And there are also the ones calling Trump’s victory a fraud and demanding a massive recount of the votes. Do they have any credible evidence to demand that? Of course they don’t.

    But they believe that in this way Hillary might get elected somehow, as if the US was some sort of third world Banana Republic that chooses presidents without any accountabilty, abruptly interrupting a centuries-old democratic tradition of free and fair elections.

    They want to put that woman there, as their president, by force, because they can’t accept the laws and the constitution when they don’t suit what they want.

    Doesn’t that remind us of Hugo Chavez and his legion?

    I don’t know about you all, but I fear those people a lot, especially because most of the media are with them. Give power to those people and see how it ends.
    .

    • Actually Marc, your statement about massive fraud is inaccurate. First, no one other than Trump is claiming massive fraud (Trump is the one claiming that he won the popular vote if votes from more than 3 million undocumented people are ignored). What Jill Stein has asked for, which is allowed by law, is an audit of the votes in Wisconsin. She is not alleging any fraud. The rest of your statements are simply ad hominem attacks. You simply seem to have missed the point of Quico’s point–Trump makes outrageous claims on a daily basis, almost always without the slightest shred of evidence. The man simply lacks the capacity for critical thinking. This is the same for Maduro.

      • What about Bernie Sanders? Isn’t he the most prominent recount parrot? He is the Dems’ Alex Jones counterpart, but one with the pen in hand to do a lot of harm, since he is a current senator and very high in the Democratic Party hierarchy, not just a ‘lunatic with a mic’ as Jones is.

        And if they think that they can revert the election results with an audit, then, yes, they are obviously speaking about a massive fraud, not just a few mistakes here and there. Those folks embarrass Americans.

        • I can’t find any reference to Sanders requesting a recount for the national election. Can you provide one?

          And again, an audit is something that is allowed (and should be expected) in any election. You conflate checking the election results with a claim of massive fraud. This is really different than claiming, without the slightest shred of evidence, that more than three million people voted illegally for Clinton, as Trump did.

          • Jill Stein tweeted five minutes ago about recounting votes in Pennsylvania, and you said that she just wanted the votes recounted in Wisconsin, hehe. Bernie Sanders, on the other hand, wants votes recounted in ‘key states’, which is a very generic term, and certainly means millions of votes enough to change the election results. They wouldn’t do that for nothing.

            I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if they went to the UN claiming that Trump made a ‘coup’ if they don’t manage to revert the election results with that ‘auditing’. Sanders actually said that there was a coup in Brazil last September, so he won’t be navigating uncharted waters, the man is just shameless.

            Regarding a source, google: sanders recount parrot.

            It will work, I promise.

          • Some people honestly can’t see the difference between asking for evidence and making sweeping claims in the absence of evidence. (Which, come to think of it, is sort of the point of the post…and neatly illustrated in comments…)

          • “You conflate checking the election results with a claim of massive fraud”

            Really!??? really!?

            How about the tin-foiled hat conspiracy theory about Putin’s cyber soldiers hacking into every electronic voting center, so that he’s able to install a Russian Puppet as President of United States?

            Let me tell you something, while there is no evidence of both, Illegal immigrants voting for Hillary, seems more plausible and believable.

            No wonder why Hillary and the liberal media are still losing, they still don’t get it.

  4. I can’t even access that link, Can’t connect to sumarium.com
    Oh and come on out here to Falcon and Ill show you hundreds of containers dumped with garbage and rotten shit in them, just rotting there.
    I read somewhere that shipping companies don’t even want to send shit here anymore cause Venezuela owes everyone millions in sea cans that they never send back out into the world.

  5. So Toro doesn’t believe Obama either, with his proclamation inviting illegals to vote without consequence.

    Really, Toro you missed your calling. You could make a lot of money as an actual psychic since you read minds so well. BTW, what are the Lottery numbers for tomorrow? What am I thinking right now?

  6. It’s called being a troll, Mr. Toro.

    Trump continues with his flaming absurd speech because that’s part of what earned him the majority, while Maduro does so because that’s what goes in the same line of lies the regime has been feeding venezuelans since the 60s when the Podrido Mayor ordered to have Venezuela invaded, it also aligns with the interests of the chavista heads, which are to divert the public attention from the true culprits of the crisis pointing at the scapegoats.

    • that’s right! scapegoating left AND (Alt) RIGHT!

      honestly so flabbergasted by the reactions of some of these commenters who take any and all criticisms of trump as PERSONAL OFFENSES – and whoever makes them is hysterical/unreasonable, how convenient

      obviously EVERYTHING “the left (AS IF it were some cohesive, homogenous group of identically-minded individuals!)” does wrong is Hillary’s fault, EVERYONE is lying except for them and whoever does not agree is part of this massive alleged “agenda” that includes ALL of the journalists, academics, hollywood, anyone disgusted by fear/hate mongering: i.e. ANYONE APART FROM TRUMP HIMSELF AND HIS SUPPORTERS – fantastic!

      & obviously what ONE says counts for EVERYONE! because EVERY liberal agrees with EVERYTHING other liberals say…. they are all just morons anyway, so it’s not as if such an incredible feat is even hard…

      amazing, such advanced and impossible universal agreement and homogeneity…. synchronized swimmers: TAKE NOTICE!

  7. Amazing. Just when I think CC has come to their senses and stopped the Chavez/Maduro and Trump comparisons, here we go again.
    Sigh…
    I know people who have committed voter fraud.
    It is remarkably easy in some US states.
    But, since the US media says it isn’t happening, we should believe them.

    • I think you left the reality part out in your handle. You knowing people who have committed electoral fraud is not the same as a massive (more than 3 million voters) doing the same, and only doing it for one specific party.
      It amazes me how someone can take some anecdotal observation and then build a conspiracy theory out of it.

      But, OK, let’s assume you are right. Why isn’t Trump bringing out any evidence to support his claim? hmmm…cause there is no such thing.

    • I also know someone who committed voter fraud. She registered her mother to vote and sent in a mail in ballot for Hillary in her mother’s name. Her mother is senile and did not fill out any forms.

      At least she is still alive. A lot of people who voted Republican in life wind up voting Democrat after they die.

  8. Bashing Trump, the new President-elect of the USA? Newly insulting old friends? Insulting new ones? That is illogical.

    If you want to point fingers, patch up your own glass house first.

    • I’m standing to my knees in shards of glass and I see my neighbor in the much bigger, more powerful glass house to the north charging at his walls with a sledgehammer…I’m under no illusion that it’ll do any good, but I feel duty bound to scream warnings until I’ve no voice left…

      • It is like the movie “The Thing” except much scarier:

        My gringo buddy and I thought we were safe from the zombie horde that had taken control of the north-east tip of South America, everything is going along relatively normally and we are feeling all self satisfied about our education levels, economic progress and the relative stability of our institutions -which still functioned more or less on the basis of objective information and reason- , and then suddenly, I turn and my gringo buddy is wearing a red baseball cap and is possessed by this monster that has entered into his brain, consuming his normal powers of independent observation and thought, and before I know it he is chasing me down a hallway with no exit chanting – “I know you are but what am I, I know you are but what am I” as I desperately try to reason with him, and as we approach the end of the hallway with no exit, he makes ready to invade my body, and I am calling out to for help to an opposition that has no fucking clue what they are dealing with here and are off talking to the pope or something…

        The Thing. Who will it be next?

      • Mr. Toro, the U.S. will deal with our President as we have done in the past. Good, bad or indifferent, our institutions will hold. Now, let’s talk about why you are wondering about in a yard of shards see fit to point the naughty finger.

      • I see this comparison completely invalid, for so many reasons.

        Donald Trump is not Chavez, USA is not Venezuela.

        For us, Venezuelans, we shouldn’t care what Mr. Trump says about other countries, we should care more what does he have to say about us and how he will deal with the maduro government.

        I see no reason for us to be antagonizing Trump.

      • A man with a construction hammer may know very well how to use it, but there is no guarantee his skill will build something of the right shape in the right location. It is possible he misreads something about the plans for the shape of the building, or about the maps. The threat many perceive in the USA is socialism. There are others who view capitalism as a threat. Which of the two is more correct? Trump is hardly a socialist. He has made his views about Castro clear. He has made his views about Venezuela clear. Before using what I am sure you view as a construction hammer, consider the location of the property. Some of us here in the States are getting just a little fed up with socialist encroachment, and socialist opinions.

        To even begin to compare Trump to Chavez is “really stretching it” (to be polite). There are many more polar opposite characteristics, than any similarities. Try looking at those polar opposites, and see if that view doesn’t make more sense. The Democrats – socialists backing Clinton – tried it, too. And the Chavistas went into a tizzy about it.

        If nothing else – you have made your editorial point of view known in previous articles. I read that a rule of thumb for poets is to scratch out their favorite line before publishing. (I happen to think that’s bulls*it advice, but it is humorous.) Capitalism from the 1600’s brought the world to standards of material living undreamt of previously, so we can’t be all that bad. Steel, railroads, telephones, skyscrapers, computers … oh, wait ….

  9. I think there is a name for this and is “Post-Truth” it doesn’t matter if you can show the facts or studies or books and books of theory that support what the economist or scientists consider to be truth. If you feel is not truth then you can deny it. Global Warning is a hoax, million of illegals voted, Barack Obama is a muslin and was born in Kenya, etc, etc, etc.

    what is really worrisome is that a large group of people believe and feel this is true no matter what you do. These people are vindicated by Brexit, by Trump and by the internet they see and read.

    We are closer to the future of Idiocracy than we ever thought….

    • yes! because apparently ALL academics are biased “libtards” conspiring against “el pueblo” —– THEY are all enemies! we the “only-hard-workers-in-the-whole-damn-world” are the true ones!

      this narrative is so ridiculously detached from reality, much like many of these comments! just madness —- one wonders how they can keep living without being electrocuted by the many short circuits going on in their freaking brains from constantly participating in the Olympic discipline of mental distortion gymnastics!

      fallacies upon fallacies and lots of vitriol —- way to go world! everything is just dandy!

      beyond unbelievable, beyond LUDICROUS — it is all starting to seem very tragic….

      just why??? what is winning the gold medal in this disingenuous ‘discipline’ really worth when by doing so you destroy facts, tolerance, empathy????

  10. You know, the problem is not really Trump, Maduro, Alex Jones or any other buffoon.
    The problem is the incredible naive Universal Suffrage System that enables them.
    In one extreme you have the Tyranny of a single person in the Dictator and on the other hand you have the Tyranny of the Masses which ends up in the other end with Democracies.
    It won’t be until Legislators recognize this major flaw in the Democratic system and conceive a more rational and balanced approach. We are going to need election reforms that filter out the low information / fake information voters.
    Voting is a right, but people in a civilized society should have also the responsibility to get informed to earn it.
    This is a necessary compromise or we risk to lose it all.

  11. I don’t see why there should be such a hysterical denial of the possibility of voter fraud in the USA. The actual process is extremely porous and quite easy to game. Motive, means and opportunity.

    And it would be a mistake to write Trump off as a buffoon. He won the elections with everyone; the other party, his party, the MSM (who didn’t exactly cover themselves with glory), the pollsters, the left wing luvvies of Hollywood and even the columnists of Caracas Chronicles! And he did it on the cheap!!

  12. A poll was taken after Kennedy had become very popular as president asking people whether they had voted for him , the result amazed everyone for many more people declared having voted for him than had actually voted for him according to electoral records , huge number of people had convinced themselves of something they must have known was false….!!

    Peoples capacity for self delusion is much greater than assummed, they will believe what they want to believe and not what their spontaneous sense of reality tells them is the truth …….One would hope that people who are chosen to act as heads of state would have a capacity for critical thought that would defend them from this penchant for delusional thinking………, well as Francisco quite clearly shows thats not the case at all…….!! at least in the case of Mr Trump and President Maduro…..!!

    A capacity for wild fabulation has become a key element in the mental makeup of state leaders ….., however there is a difference between the two, If Mr Trump is bothered by having lost the popular vote then he should be the first person interested in promoting an audit of electoral records to show that but for two million fraudulent voters he would have won the popular vote , to set the record straight and yet he does not appear to be supporting the proposed audit which puzzling !!

    In the case of President Maduro however its quite clear that he not only is not interested in supporting his claim with any specific attempt at an explanation as to how exactly that economic war has been waged so as to produce the absolute economic disaster he presides over but also that absent that claim he is in deep trouble because then the only explanation for the economic disaster is his regimes total mismanagement of the economy , something which of course would seriously deligitimize his governent before the world and the mass of his own countrymen…!!

    • There seems to be a lot of ignorance here about what is going on with the recounts. I see it in this post and also in Francisco Toro’s post about the same issue.

      1. First of all, there has in fact been talk of fraud. These “audits” are not normal. They were recommended to be requested by supposed “experts” (read “leftists”) who said that when you look at the statistics, Trump won more votes than you would expect in places where electronic voting was in place as compared to places where paper balloting was used. This group of “experts” posited that this was due to hacking of the electronic voting machines. This is the genesis of the challenges to the official results. The fact that Toro doesn’t even know this shows that he really shouldn’t be writing articles about American politics. He simply doesn’t know enough about the subject matter.

      http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/23/politics/election-hack-hillary-clinton-donald-trump/

      Jill Stein is right now using this claim in her suit against the state of Pennsylvania. She is saying that the electronic voting machines may have been hacked in order to tilt the election in Trump’s favor. Left unsaid is the usual lefty loony McCarthyite conspiracy theory that Russia is behind the supposed hacking.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3979324/Trump-camp-continues-hammer-ridiculous-recount-effort-offers-no-evidence-candidate-s-claim-millions-people-voted-illegally.html

      To be clear, there is absolutely no reason to believe that any hacking occurred. The differences can be explained by demographics. Alternatively, they can be explained by Dems doing what they always do and stuffing the ballot boxes in their inner city strongholds.

      Boy, do you guys have egg on your face. Talk about being uninformed and falling for wild propaganda and conspiracy theories…

      2. The idea that this is just some kind of normal audit in order to protect democracy is the new gambit. Of course, even a small child should have the necessary critical thinking skills to debunk this claim. Why would the audits only apply to the states critical for Trump’s victory? These recounts are being pushed ONLY for states that Trump narrowly won and that were key to his electoral college victory. I assume this is purely coincidence? Nobody is talking about a full audit of all 50 states. The Democrats sprung surprise requests to recount ONLY states that Trump won, and they did it just before the deadlines (in Pennsylvania they cut it too close and failed). Why in the world would Trump support this?

      I would further argue that they are not even audits. They are recounts.

      As for why is Trump not requesting a recount – probably because he was declared the winner of the election, but that’s just a guess.

      Bill, I have read your comments for years and know you are a smart guy. Come on guys, you are better than this.

      • One ironic aspect of Benjamin’s comment is that the logic (irregularity in voting patterns in district with electronic voting machines) he now ascribes to leftists in the USA is the same one that Readers of Caracas Chronicles used to call into questions the 2004 recall referendum and other elections in Venezuela. And gisclosure: I have been a fierce opponent of the Venezuelan government since the early 2000s.

        The same people who here claim that there is no a pirori reason to justify seeking an audit or recount of votes in closely contested elections, at the same time see no problem with Trump claiming that millions of votes were indeed illegal and that he won the popular vote.

  13. What people are forgetting is that voter fraud DOES occur and it HAS tipped elections already in states like Minnesota. A recent case over the summer identified over 1500 voters ineligible to vote that were never purged from the rolls, but, they cast ballots in the prior elections.

    http://www.americanexperiment.org/news/widespread-voter-fraud-documented-new-minnesota-supreme-court-case/

    If Minnesota, with 4.5M people had just that many felons voting, image a state like CA or NY with 10x as many felons voting. You get to 750K illegal votes in a hurry.

    If that many felons are voting illegally and we have over 300K more people voting than are registered in states like MN, IL, …etc. getting to 2M illegal votes cast is entirely possible (and probable)

    For some people, math is hard.

  14. I find this post, like all of CC’s Trump hit pieces, perplexing on several different levels.

    1. Did you not notice that when Castro died, there was only one world leader who had the courage and moral conviction to state the obvious? How did you like the statements from the Canucklehead PM? The Canadians, who have business interests in Cuba (purely due to their superior nature and good-heartedness of course) think that Castro is Latin America’s “longest serving president”. The red pope? Macri? The first paragraph of Obama’s press release has to be the most mealy-mouthed statement ever released by an American president. Do you still hold out hope that these men, these heroes of democracy, are going to help you?

    Have you been so propagandized by the Spanish language news that you didn’t even notice that the guy who you were told was greedy, anti-democratic, opportunistic and amoral was the only honest adult in the room?

    2. Speaking of fake news, did you see The Intercept’s brutal take down of the Washington Post regarding that venerable paper’s McCarthyite propaganda?

    https://theintercept.com/2016/11/26/washington-post-disgracefully-promotes-a-mccarthyite-blacklist-from-a-new-hidden-and-very-shady-group/

    Clearly WaPo is involved in the same kind of agenda driven “journalism” that led to that big Rolling Stones fake news rape story.

    What say you about all of the “fake news” being promoted by these wannabe Pravdas?

    3. My in laws are South American. I see the same “news” you guys watch. It is worse than CNN and MSNBC. It’s not surprising you have no clue about Trump supporters. I read your statements about the people voting for Trump being the least educated. You don’t understand America’s demographics I suppose. The least educated precints are all Dem strongholds. You know, just like in Venezuela with the Chavistas. Among Americans who make north of $50K per year, Trump won. It wasn’t a bunch of hill billy’s who voted for Trump and Hillary’s supporters are not the urbane sophistos you imagine them to be. You have very little idea of what is happening in the USA and should probably stop writing about it. The election of Trump is a reaction to an intolerable status quo and many people who voted for him are acting perfectly rationally and in their own informed interests.

    Again, I don’t find it surprising that you have been propagandized by the “noticias falsas” that seeks to defend the status quo – but it is ironic given what you have written here.

    4. Yes, Alex Jones is a charlatan. That doesn’t change the fact that there is voter fraud occurring here in the USA, and that it mostly occurs in Democratic strongholds. The only question is how prevalent it is. I do not find Trump’s assertion that the fraudulent votes run into the millions to be completely outlandish. Yes, it’s certainly on the high end of what I would estimate but it’s not out of the realm of possibility.

    When lawmakers propose requiring a citizenship ID card in order to vote, Democrats attack these common sense ideas as “racist”. Why would they make such shameless claims? Oh, right, because in places like Chicago they have been stuffing the ballot boxes for many decades. The last thing they want is one citizen, one vote. The last thing they want is democracy.

    Are you aware that illegal aliens have been arrested here for voting? Are you aware that right now it is incredibly easy for an illegal to vote in most states? Here is what you need to vote…

    A. fill out a form to register to vote
    B. provide a driver’s license #
    C. affirm you are a citizen

    Many blue states have went out of their way to make sure illegal aliens can get driver’s licenses. When you show up to vote, they literally do not even request to see an ID of any sort. Remember, you already provided a driver’s license # on your form so you just have to tell them your name! It is clear that the system is not only open to abuse, but is specifically designed to be abused.

    You would have to be an idiot to assume that illegals were not voting in our elections. The only question is how many. True the Vote is an organization that is working to figure this out. They have also said that what Trump has asserted is indeed possible. They are launching a review of available data. Months from now they intend to release their findings. We will see.

    5. Doesn’t much of the Venezuelan opposition claim that Maduro stole the last election? Didn’t Capriles himself make this assertion? Is he too an Alex Jones acolyte? Should we dismiss the lot of you as ignorant conspiracy theorists because you haven’t shown us proof? Does CNN or the New York Times say that there was election fraud? Why is it OK for Capriles and the Venezuelan opposition but not for gringos?

    • ” I read your statements about the people voting for Trump being the least educated. You don’t understand America’s demographics I suppose. The least educated precints are all Dem strongholds. You know, just like in Venezuela with the Chavistas. Among Americans who make north of $50K per year, Trump won. It wasn’t a bunch of hill billy’s who voted for Trump and Hillary’s supporters are not the urbane sophistos you imagine them to be. ”

      Yeah, you are right.

      From socialist ‘The Guardian’:

      “54% of male college graduates voted for Trump. 39% for Clinton.”

      “Among the 64% of American voters who earn more than $50,000 a year, 49% chose Trump, and 47% Clinton.”

      “52% of voters earning less than $50,000 a year – who make up 36% of the electorate – voted for Clinton, and 41% for Trump.”

      So, yes, it’s a little bit more complicated than Toro’s prejudices and clichés: Trump voters as all dumb, poor, rural, uneducated, parochial, without passports, racists and xenophobic, while Hillary voters are all wealthy, extremely educated, open-minded, sophisticated and a well-traveled kind of people doesn’t really hold water.

      By the way, Trump’s victory should serve as a guidebook for all the regular ‘losers’ like Capriles and others alike in South America. Recently, in the city of Sao Paulo, a self-declared right-wing person who said that he would privatize even the public parks, has won the mayoral election basically using that same Trump platform: no fear to say what he thinks, didn’t pretend to be a socialist to please we don’t know who — they never show up to vote for them anyway –, and in the best Trump fashion he didn’t hide that he is rich! He actually used that to his benefit, by saying that he wanted to see all poor people living like him, and that he would work hard for that if he wins! It was a smart move that would make Capriles go nuts!

      Guess what happened: he won by a landslide!!! So, take note Capriles and the others tired of losing every damn elections to communist dinossaurs: learn with Trump. It’s already giving fruits.

      I believe that Macri and Kuczynski would have won by a safer, greater margin, had they adopted a different, more trumpesque, strategy. Because the people, especially the poor, are tired of anything resembling the left, they are tired of listening to the same thing for so long, they want to be rescued, they want something new, they want to break their chains, they just don’t have options to choose from.

      • Hey, if you want Trumpesque, keep your eye on Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador. The guy who declared his defeat to Felipe Calderon fraudulent and unilaterally declared himself President of Mexico. That guy. Well apparently in his parallel universe, term limits do not apply. Trump could put a guy like that over the top in the next Mexican presidential elections. That would be a major regional calamity, were it not the case that the USA has already befallen an even bigger calamity.

        Marc, it is not a strategy these guys are following, in any normal sense of politics. It is a disease of malignant ignorance that takes hold of democracies and kills them. Like Venezuela.

        AMLO. That’s your next Latin American Trump. Probably thanks to Trump.

    • Benjamin,

      I spent much of April 2013 attacking Capriles for………alleging fraud without clear evidence. It did immense damage to the opposition, almost as bad as the 2003 outburst of the same thing.

      What you don’t seem to grasp is that you are jumping directly from “here are the reasons to think it’s not unimaginable that such a thing could have happened” (which I’m fully prepared to entertain as a possibility) to “this definitely happened” without even slowing down in the square marked “collect, systematize, present and analyze evidence that something theoretically possible actually *did* happen”.

      After all, voting records are public. If there are millions of non-citizens who voted illegally, it’d be trivial to compile a list of their names and addresses. No such list exists and none of the conspiracy theorists are even concerned to put in the elbow grease to compile that list.

      BECAUSE IT’S BULLSHIT!

      • You expect political machines to expose their own corruption? I suppose I forgot you are an economist by training and so don’t understand how things work in the real world. Theoretically, it would be doable. That assumes there were some benevolent, competent power put in charge of the whole thing.

        In the real world, no, it would not be easy. There are 50 states and they are inividually in charge of counting their own votes. The Federal government cannot interfere.

        True the Vote is indeed investigating voter fraud and the possibility that many illegals are voting. They wont be helped by the states where the most fraud occurs but they will release the results of whatever findings they come up with in several months time.

        Like many Trump supporters, I am glad he is now saying that millions of illegals are voting in our elections. This is how the conversation gets started. This is how the ball gets rolling. We cannot just say “excuse me, corrupt people, please investigate your own corruption and then get back to us”. The power elites want an open border. They want illegals voting. Don’t you realize how easy it would be for them to make it difficult for illegals to vote? Well, they flatly refuse and vilify anyone who has the temerity to suggest doing so as “racists”.

        No, I don’t believe everything that comes out of Trump’s mouth. I understand he has proven nothing. His assertion that millions of illegals have voted seems at the upper extreme to me. I am still glad to see him fight fire with fire as he struggles against the powers that be. If it turns out that he is wrong and that merely hundreds of thousand of illegals voted, great.

        Let’s get the conversation started though because we need reforms and we need investigations. The recounts you are referring to as audits are not what we are hoping for. They are targeted ONLY for swing states that Trump won narrowly. They were sprung at the last moment and the deadline has passed for other states. The people behind them have the worst of possible motives. The people behind them and those now openly cheering them are the same people who said Trump was endangering our very Republic back when he was stating that he would not concede the election if he believed fraud played a part in the result. It seems they (you?) have had a change of heart. Now contesting the election results and even doing it in the most underhanded mannner possible is A-OK. It’s almost as if they are shameless liars and hypocrites who were merely smearing Trump when they called him anti-democratic.

        Wild talk of Russian hacking was used to raise the needed money. More money was raised in a week by Jill Stein to apply for recounts than she raised during her entire presidential campaign. This is an attempt by the status quo powers to either overturn the election or taint Trump’s victory so that they can oppose him openly (a la Brexit, the binding vote which is suddenly only kinda sorta binding).

        Has CC shown statistics to prove that military officers are benefitting from corruption? Have you shown hard data to prove that many people buy price controlled goods for resale? Where is the proof the Chavistas in the upper echelons of the government have enriched themselves? I have not seen statistics here regarding the smuggling of drugs by the military. These then are all just wild conspiracy theories cooked up by dunces who lack a scientific mind.

        Every time a CC writer tells an anecdote or appeals to common sense, we can know they have gone off the deep end, straight down the Alex Jones rabbit hole. It doesn’t matter what they see and hear as they live their lives in Chavista Venezuela. Scientifically minded people, even those who have not so much as set foot in Venezuela, can know it’s all just conspiracy theories until they produce hard data. That does beg the question – why then do you print so much fake news?

        • What do you consider hard data Benjamin? Detailed surveillance photos of the boys caught in the act? An independent investigative agency that compiles evidence of all these things locals see and don’t report for fear of retribution? That would be awesome!! I grew up in North America and am used to seeing how things should run when things are done mostly properly and the first thing I noticed was that people here do not cooperate with the government. People are afraid of police and especially the military and do not cooperate with them in any way shape or form. Here it is common for police to plant shit on you, I know its happened to me. And this after a cop bitch slapped me one day and I decided to denounce him. He slapped the fuck out of me because I threatened to tell the mayor of the city who I knew quite well that he was harassing me for no good reason. Shocked the shit out of me that he slapped me for talking back to him so I figured I’d report it. I went the regular route and showed up at the cop shop figuring Id do this the old fashioned way, what a gong show that was, they ended up running me off threatening to put me in jail right then and there, so I went and talked to my buddy who put me in touch with some other buddy district attorney who told me straight up that he was petajota from Caracas, Circulo Bolivariano, one of Chavez’s old SS personal elite. Bad man, untouchable, stay away, don’t make any more noise or you might end up with flies in your mouth. OK…Great first lesson: You never know who you are dealing with in this Regime. There is an established hierarchy that you cannot mess with, untouchable people with contacts. I learned early, its not what you know, its who you know. I have national police buddies in Transit that are afraid to do their jobs and check big rigs carrying cargo because the only ones doing anything are all highly connected and the drivers make one phone call and their bosses call them and tell them to leave it alone. The typical punishment is they transfer you far far away from your family.
          My point is we all see this shit happening everyday, it’s not even shocking any more, I’ve lost count of how many bodies I’ve seen here. When you see something fishy you look the other way… and fast…. and better hope they didn’t see you see them. What you don’t do is pull out a camera and start snapping pictures cause thats just fricken suicide. Anytime evidence is rounded up it either gets ignored or the people who gathered it get threatened and it goes away. It’s literally the wild west here, everything is fubared, we know it, we see it, but we feel helpless to stop it. We have to be driven to the point where we just don’t give a shit anymore so we are willing to take the risk but at the same time knowing its not going to accomplish much until there are many more behind you.

          • Marc, I know all of those things are indeed happening in Venezuela. Not only is it common sense, but it would be foolish for me to dismiss the life experiences of people who actually live in Venezuela as merely “anecdotal”. I was just pointing out that it seems rich to demand hard data from the gringos when that same standard does not apply to their very own blog about life in Venezuela.

      • I have been reading CC a long time. Been involved in Venezuela a long time. Knew Chavez for what he was before he ever took office. What I do not understand is the fascination with making Trump=Chavez.
        What had Chavez ever done before taking office, except try to take it by force.
        He had no achievements. Nada, zero.
        As I have stated several times here, the only comparison between Trump and Chavez is that they both tapped into what the people were trying to say and was not being heard by the political elites.

  15. I think the world is just sick of socialism. We’ve seen it doesn’t work. You can’t tell the productive half your population that no matter how hard they work, you are going to take it away and give it to the less fortunate and the other less productive half to not bother to work too hard because no matter what, your still going to give them enough to be comfortable. Everyone just gives up. Idiocracy.

  16. If there is concern that Putin may have altered voting results via a subreptitious hacking of the US voting machinery then the concern is sufficiently serious as to deserve an auditing effort not only in the crucial states where Mr Trump won but in other states as well …..although if Putin was interested in a result favourable to Mr Trump the first states to audit would be those that allowed him to win the elections.

    ……We do know that Mr Puttin has the technical resources to attempt that kind of hacking ( there is proof of his having recently hacked other US cyber systems) , favours Mr Trump ( because of Mr Trumps apparent good opinion of him) and is absolutely capable of having such hacking done ……!! I would have thought that promoting such audit would be in Mr Trumps interest to avoid any insinuation of a fraudulent manipulation of electoral results by a foreign power. Moreover if his rival has benefited from 2 million fraudulent votes made by people lacking the right to vote , even if he won the election he should as an institutional matter be interested in checking whether that fraud did ocurr ……

    It is repeatedly mentioned that Mr Trump win would have not been possible but for the above average support he got from non college educated whites ……whatever high level of support he got from college educated whites , thats why he went after the US trade deals and against inmigration , because globalization, although favoured by a large number of college educated white republicans is unpopular among blue collar white manufacturing workers whose jobs have been ravaged by globalization (by US companies taking their operations abroad) and seemingly by the rise in mexican inmigration……!!

    Is this an incorrect assumption ?? or did Mr Trump focus much of his campaign on attracting the support of these non college educated white voters ?? I am very not all that knowledgeable about the specifics of Mr Trumps campain strategies….!!

    • Nope, there is no concern that Putin altered voting results. Even Hillary Clinton’s campaign lawyer is saying there no concern of hacking. That was just a wild conspiracy theory but the proponents were lauded as “experts” rather than vilified as crazies because they are leftists working on behalf of the establishment and that’s just how it works now.

      Again, I keep explaining to you why Trump would be against what you are calling an audit but is actually an recount of the votes. The recounts were only applied for in key swing states that Trump won by small margins. These leftist operatives waited until just before the deadline to file for the recounts, so there is a real danger that the process will not be completed in time and those electoral votes from one or more states will be thrown out (don’t worry, Trump will still win).

      http://www.jsonline.com/story/opinion/2016/11/29/editorial-jill-steins-wisconsin-vanity-project/94608716/

      That’s the editorial line from the largest newspaper in Wisconsin. It is of course a leftist newspaper and virulently anti-Trump. Even they are outraged and don’t agree with this new “audit for the good of democracy” gambit.

      Is it repeatedly mentioned that Clinton won among people who don’t have a high school degree? Try doing some googling. Let me know if you see it mentioned even once. Yes, what you cited is repeatedly mentioned, because that is the narrative they want to present to you. If you want to be informed, you are going to have to look past the corporate media, who are now Pravda style mouthpieces for the status quo.

      Trump did focus on anti-globalization, as did Bernie Sanders. Non-hispanic whites voted against Clinton by a large margin (58% to 37% according to exit polls) and that is why she lost. It’s not cited by the media, but a major reason for this is the bigoted nature of the current Democratic platform. The Democrats decided that if they got Blacks and Hispanics to turn out to vote, they would win the election. So they went all in on identity politics, even embracing hate groups like La Raza, Black Lives Matter and The New Black Panther Party. The Dems embraced bigots like Al Sharpton and Lena Dunham (who served as an official campaign “surrogate” for the Clinton campaign, tweeting jokes about how all white men should be killed because that would represent “evolution” of the species). They embraced ignorant, non-sensical, bigoted philosophies like “disparate outcomes” and “white privilege”.

      I know Democrats and people who voted for Obama twice who voted for Trump. The Dems still do not seem to realize that there was a backlash against their vitriol and embrace of bigotry. The media was talking ad nauseam about non-existent links between Trump and hate groups, and all the while the Democrats went all in on racism. Here’s a video of a Bernie Sanders rally in the extremely liberal city of Seattle. Black Lives Matter racists storm the stage and berate the crowd. Instead of simply stating that these people represented a lunatic fringe, the Democratic party decided to attempt to mainstream them because their racial profilers believed that would get out the black vote.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VbHUI1R3IA&t=244s

      The Democrats were the party of slavery. They were the party of Jim Crow, segregation, Bull Connor, the KKK, the Knights of the Golden Circle, the Confederacy… Today, having inexplicably decided to reject the ideals espoused by Martin Luther King (judge a man not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character), they continue their tradition as the party of unabashed racism.

      Hilllary’s self described mentor was Senator Robert Byrd. She spoke at his funeral. He had been a high ranking member of the KKK. One her greatest heroes is Margaret Sanger, a woman who was into eugenics and who championed abortion as a way to limit the birth rate of black people, whom she considered inferior. Again, her campaign hired raving lunatic Lena Dunham as a “surrogate” to speak for Hillary. Can you imagine if any one of these things were true about Donald Trump? If some drunk fool on a street corner mentions Donald Trump and the KKK, the corporate media will try to make it international news.

      This is one of the primary reasons Hillary lost, but you won’t see it discussed much if you just stick to the mainstream propaganda that passes for “news” nowadays.

      • If Putins hacking of US electoral systems is purely imaginary then there is no harm done if the system is checked for that sort of interference, if massive fraud has been committed then both candidates should be interested in determining its extent and ultimate impact on the results (if any) , Do note that Im not echoing the specific claims and request advanced by the opponents of Mr Trump but simply stating what should be obvious, if these suspicion exist by all means lets carry out an institutionally motivated exercise to set the record straight …..these are not matters which are of indifference to the world , it should extend not only to the states which have been proposed by some backers of Mrs Clinton but to any state in which they might have ocurred……

        Please do not assumme that my comment is intended to support any specific initiative to recount or audit the votes (checking fraud is more than recounting ) but the general principle that the system gains in credibility when all these doubts whatever their source are set to rest …. the enraged response is mistifying to me because Im coming from a totally different angle than you or the people you criticize come from…

        I have my own reservations about Mr Trump (also the idea that although crudely presented there are concerns which he addresses which are legitimate and worthy of attention), about the narcicistic histrionic ,acerbic hysterical way he presents himself and his message , its worrisome when the head of the US acts the part of a ludicrous teen age boy. But besides all that I also have some doubts about some (not all) of his proposed approaches to some very complex and difficult problems which the US faces…….., they reek of the bombastic and melodramatic , of the boorish and the oversimplistic….!! Moreover of the dangerous . This is not to say that I presume to give a totally clean pass to Mrs Clinton , she too has shown shortcomings and limitations …!! But in comparison she seems more adult and balanced than Mr Trump….!!

        I am not too scandalized by politicians pecadilloes , as Saint Just said ( before he was beheaded at the end of the Terror during the French Revolution) , no one with his hands in the reins of power can ever maintain himself innocent. LBJ was a statesman and he was certainly no saint …..I dont think that pols need to be saints or heroes to be effective public men ….but a certain gravitas and mental balance is important.!!

        My point about the importance of the white non college educated support for Mr Trump as decisive is one which Ive seen no one doubt , which doesnt mean that he didnt get support from white college educated people who traditionally lean towards Republican candidates…….!! doenst mean that he will make a good president because education is no guarantee that peoples judgment cannot become biased by the pull of adverse circumstance….or pretentious passions..

        My main contention is simple , Im not a partisan in the US cultural wars of political identity …..Ive read too much history for that…….and if I make a comment its not to become part of that conflict which now engulfs american natives but to make a conceptual or critical point ….!!

        • Thanks for the thoughtful reply Bill.

          Even as a partisan of the US culture wars, I can’t take offense to anything you’ve written here. I even agree with many of your criticisms of Trump. He is indeed a thin skinned, narcissistic baby. I can’t say I trust him too much.

          I also can’t disagree overmuch with people who say they don’t like Hillary but prefer her to Trump. What gets me going is when people start parroting the party line from our very own communication hegemony (or want to be hegemony, thank goodness for the internet), that Trump is a deranged Nazi, conservatives are racists, left wingers are saints, blah blah blah

  17. I’m not sure about the actual figure, but in my mind it’s evident that non citizens did vote. Remember that the USA has over 10 million illegals, plus several tens of millions of legal residents who don’t have USA citizenship (these are the green card holders and others with visas).

    As it turns out the democrats have made significant efforts to make it easier to vote, and this includes eliminating the requirement that one provide a birth certificate, passport, or other document that proves USA citizenship (for example the naturalization certificate).

    Since the pool of noncitizens is several tens of millions, it wouldn’t surprise me to see that at least several hundred thousand were able to vote. And my guess is some of them may even think they were legit, given the confusing language used by democrats (which includes the Obama video).

    • Exactly.

      When a Venezuelan stands in line waiting to buy groceries, they look around and realize there are bachaqueros in line me with them. They don’t need a special Federal commission nor official statistics to know that. It’s obvious and it is common sense. Given the system, how could it be any other way?

      • Actually those guys are not the issue anymore, that’s small potatoes. The national guard has given green light to small commercial grocers in my town to sell stuff to the public at lower then Bachaquero prices. The Chinese I do business with explained how it all works. They stop the trucks outside the town at the national guard post, off load it, take their portion and sell it to the local grocers for less then they can buy it from the truck guys that bring in in who don’t even dare come here anymore because they get their truck full of chicken confiscated and sold to the public at legal rate, way below cost of production. The leftovers gets distributed to the clap guys and they make up the bags with whats left and put a price on it. Which is why we never see premium stuff like margarine and cooking oil in those clap bags. Yet right after the trucks get off loaded it appears in the grocery stores. Go figure, the National guard are the new Bachequeros, they scooped the business right out from under joe blow stand in line. That person still sells but not much as they are restricted by a per person limit, and they have to eat too. But again I don’t have any recordings of those deals made by the chinese with the national guard to be able to sell chicken again. It was awesome though cause I hadn’t eaten a chicken (because there was none of course)in 6 months and that is just fucking ridiculous.

  18. Francisco, why settle with just one example?
    There is so much more!
    Trump lied all the way to the White House.
    We have a long track record for Mr. Trump statements; thanks to a nonpartisan fact-checking operations like PolitiFact, we can even quantify his lies.

    PolitiFact has examined this far 338 Trump statements and 293 Clinton statements and classified them on a scale ranging from “True” to “Pants on Fire.”
    What this show is two candidates living in different moral universes when it comes to truth-telling. Mr. Trump had 61 Pants on Fire ratings, Mrs. Clinton just seven; the Republican nominee had 113 False ratings, the Democrat 29.

    If you ever wonder why so many people have no respect for Trump, this is one among many other issues.
    Unfortunately, as the results show most voters don’t get properly informed, since it is not a requirement when voting.

    http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

    • As Hillary herself said, “What difference at this point does it make”?
      In truth, Politifact is a site that always rates Republicans as lying more than Democrats.

      • Politifact is a recipient of the highly respected Pulitzer Prize on Journalism. The whole thing revolves around verifiable facts.
        Here is one of the outright lies by Trump.

        “We’re the highest taxed nation in the world.”

        Where are you getting your “news”, Facebook?

        • Ultra left wing Columbia University’s Pullitzer Prize is highly respected in your bubble, the bubble where Trump had no chance of winning. Over the years it’s kind of lost it’s shine.

          That reminds me… remember when Barrack Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize? That was funny.

        • That’s depends on what taxes Trump is talking about in that sentence. Is he talking about overall taxes? Maybe he was he talking about corporate taxes? Did he mean per capita, or the total amount taken in? You can spin this a lot of ways, but unless there is some context it is meaningless.

    • You can quantify his lies? Even as a disciple of a soft science this is beneath you. Politifact are a bunch of hacks and are not non-partisan.

      Hillary is a notorious liar, even among her own supporters. I’ve spoken with many Hillary voters who will just openly laugh and say of course she is a complete liar. They feel all politicians lie, so what does it matter.

      Off the top of my head, some of my favorite Hillary lies

      1. Her Walter MItty-esque storming of the Sarajevo airport under sniper fire

      The best part of this lie is that even after the video of the actual event had been produced, like a true compulsive liar she doubled down with an even more bizarre explanation. She had in fact been told on the plane that there was sniper fire and that she would have to be rushed to an armored car, but there was a little girl waiting on the runway for her. The little girl had been chosen to hand her a gift and greet here. There was only one thing to do! Tell these morons to immediately get the little girl to safety? Of course not! The only thing to do was leisurely stroll around with you only child right at your side, and casually talk in the middle of the runway, not only the little girl but to a dozen other people. Why? BECAUSE HILLARY CARES ABOUT CHILDREN, that child had traveled a long way to see her!

      2. Monica Lewinsky was a crazy stalker

      Bill Clinton was a nice guy and this crazy loon girl just took it the wrong way. You know how ditzy young women are. Bill had smiled and been polite and she took it the wrong way and now she had imagined an affair. It was all in her mind. In fact, she had been stalking Bill. She was following him around like a puppy and people were starting to worry about her.

      This is a favorite because it goes against everything she supposedly believes in. The most powerful man in the world had an affair with a 21 year old and then set his political machine in motion to utterly annihilate her reputation. Hillary was in charge of these attacks.

      Then something insane happened. Word leaked that Monica had Bill’s semen stain saved on here dress. It was like yanking the pin off the record player. Immediately all of the talk of Monica being delusional stopped. A British leftist, a former Clinton supporter, was so disgusted by this attempt to smear a young woman who had been used and discarded by Bill that he wound up wroting an entire book about the Clintons. It’s called “No One Left to Lie To”. You should check it out, it’s a good book.

      3. Hillary has for decades been fighting for the rights of children and women

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3729466/Child-rape-victim-comes-forward-time-40-years-call-Hillary-Clinton-liar-defended-rapist-smearing-blocking-evidence-callously-laughing-knew-guilty.html

      Hillary is the candidate who was against gay marriage. Until it became unpopular to be against gay marriage and then she couldn’t imagine what kind of neanderthal could possibly be against gay marriage.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I

      When talking to banksters she “dreamed of free trade and open borders”. The TPP was the “gold standard”. Oh wait, Bernie Sanders is gaining in the polls and the majority of Democrats are against the TPP? Hillary never liked the TPP, what are you talking about? She was always against that.

      Here’s Bill as Donald Trump back when he was president:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auZRVqrCLY8

      Neither Clinton actually believes half of what they are saying at any given time. They are sociopaths who crave status, wealth and power.

      I could go on and on about the Clintons.

      Please remember that just a few short months ago, Bernie Sanders supporters were being smeared by the mainstream media as delusional conspiracy theorists. Why? Because many Bernie supporters were speaking up and saying that both the media and the DNC were in the tank for the status quo candidate, Hillary Clinton. If not for wikileaks, we may have never known how correct those Bernie supporters were.

      They were not kind-of-sort-of correct. They were 100% correct. The DNC and the media were both caught red handed. The head of the DNC was forced to step down. Her replacement was implicated by later email releases (clearly they are rotten to the core). “Journalists” were caught sending articles to the Hillary campaign for review. The Clinton campaign had veto power over quotes they could use. One “journalist” bragged to her campaign how he had been writing articles supportive of Sanders, but only so when Sanders lost he would have more gravitas when he called up on his supporters to vote for Hillary! CNN set up a fake town hall. The people who would be called upon to ask questions were known before hand. Their questions were known verbatim. These questions were passed on to the Clinton campaign before the televised event. Did lying, cheating Hillary report this to the American people, to CNN executives or the DNC? Of course not, she likes cheating! This is the candidate and the system you are so enamored with.

  19. Trump says stupid things but I cannot figure why so much attention is paid to him here. He is irrelevant to the issue at hand, removal of your government. He is not an interventionist. He voted for John Kerry in 2004. Does his name come up because there are no positive developments in Ve ezuela and/or because some folks who oppose the Chavistas, wish to burnish their liberal leftist bona fides by attacking someone perceived to be conservative. In truth he has been a registered Democrat most of his life and many conservatives like me did not vote for him because he is quite liberal except for immigration. He, like many Democrats and unlike most Republicans does not believe in free trade. That said I wish you well in getting rid of the chavistas.

  20. This comment section is probably one of the saddest ones I’ve read till now. So many people enter into this world of plain stupidity I cannot understand. Trump supporters STOP comparing Trump to anyone else.

    The point of the matter is that just this statement without any other action or knowledge means that he claimed this statement without knowing it was true. YES say whatever you want about Clinton, ok, she’s a liar etc. etc. etc., does that make Trump any less of a liar? NO, stop looking around the truth and look stratigh at it.

    It is ridiculous that Quico had to actually reply to your comments. The media is against you…we’re sick of hearing it, show us reputable data and websites and I will 100% read them and give Trump credit where it’s due, but yelling like a little 5 year old without proving anything will get you nowhere. PLEASE stop comparing Trump to everyone and claiming that he’s better than them. He lied.

    Whether it could be potentially true that illegals voted doesn’t matter, because at this point their is no data (ah yes data you should read more about it, it’s quite enlightening) that millions have voted illegally. If you want to prove me wrong find the data don’t yell at me. Start a movement of recollecting data [and not hate] that the media so desperately wants to hide.

    Be reasonable. HE LIED. Period.

    • Your comment is not logical. The point of Francisco’s Toro’s post is to assert that Trump is like Hugo Chavez. Why? Well because FT feels that Trump told a ridiculous lie (many in the comments section who have far more life experience in the USA disagree). So why wouldn’t we point out that Hillary has told many ridiculous lies? Following FT’s logic, wouldn’t this mean that Hillary is also like Chavez?

      These are baseless smears against Trump (not saying he lied, saying he is another Hugo Chavez). You hate Trump. We get it. He is nothing like Hugo Chavez and the Democratic platform of bigotry, hatred, vitriol, authoritarianism and identity politics is far closer to Chavismo. This simple truth makes you uncomfortable, but that’s OK.

  21. Benjamin—take a deep breath, just because some think “the Donald” to be a grade A tool and huckster, does not mean that it is their obligation to defend Hillary. In the opinion of many, neither were anything more than “qualified” (constitutional requirements). Outside of the fact that many of your and others non-cited claims, your argument against the audit/recount is without merit. Assuming that you would have supported the RR on Maduro, a constitutional right of Venezuelans; you seem unable to see that what Stein is doing is also within the rule of law. In the end her motives do not matter (she questions the efficacy of vaccines, does anything else need to be said), she is acting with the established and recognized system. Your interpretation of the the election results are just that yours.

    • If someone makes a post saying there is quantifiable proof that Hillary is more honest than Trump, it seems very reasonable for me to mention Hillary in a reply. And it is then their obligation to defend Hillary – if they feel like posting, no one should be forced to post 😉

      I don’t think my argument against the recount is without merit just because it is within the law. This is specious reasoning. There are plenty of perfectly legal actions which are unwarranted, obnoxious and/or immoral. The purpose of the existing laws are not so that some loser who came in 4th place in the state (garnering 1.5% of the vote) can call for a recount at the last minute, not only wasting many millions of dollars of tax payer money but also causing a crisis where a state’s electoral votes might not count because the recount cannot be completed on time. How would you like it if someone did something obnoxious which cost you time, money and agency, and their answer was “but I am entitled to do this according to existing law”. I doubt you’d be OK with that.

      My interpretation of the election results are indeed my own. Isn’t that the kind of thing that the comment section is meant for? If the subject interests you, you should welcome dissenting voices and be willing to read a wide range of postmortems. I would just advise you to pay a little bit more attention to the postmortems coming from people who expected the eventual outcome, rather than from the people who laughed at the people who expected the eventual outcome.

      The Democrats, to my mind, have drawn the wrong conclusions. The current front runner to replace Donna Brazile (exposed as corrupt by wikileaks) as head of the Democratic National Committee is a former member of the Nation of Islam, a guy who would write newspaper articles defending Louis Farrakhan and all sorts of other crazy bigots and anti-semites. I ask again, could you imagine the outcry if the RNC were to be led by a former member of Aryan Nation? Could you imagine if Trump had a Reverend Wright in his past? I will not stop pointing out the hypocrisy of the press and of the American left, who have gone off the rails at this point.

  22. It appears to me that you are viewing this from the wrong angle, in my humble opinion. This is not a issue that is needs to be debated, personal perspective matters not; Stein is working within the established/accepted/legal structural procedures of the country. Whatever her stated motives may be or ulterior motives you may describe to her are irrelevant. She is working with the law of the country, nothing else matters.

    Please stop with the grotesque claims (again without citation) that millions/hundreds of thousands of illegals vote/ed. I count at least two comments here making the claim that they personally know someone who voted illegally but do not recall you asking if they have counted the appropriate authorities. Is this an important issue you believe to be a threat or not?

    Stein has raised the money needed to fund the recount, there is no crisis, nobody will be going to the UN to try and have the election results overturned. Enough with these outrageous lies and find a new source of information because the one you are using is not credible.

  23. It is estimated that between 10 to 30 million illegal immigrants live in the US.
    Surely we can all admit that at least one fraudulently voted.
    As to 3 million? yes. that seems like a stretch.

    One of the problems of having that many illegal immigrants in a country is that it is, indeed, very hard to know with precise figures what exactly they are doing.

    Admitting this simple truth doesn’t make one a crazy conspiracy theorist, as CNN would have you believe.

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