Original art by @modográfico

“The Stone Age did not end for lack of stone,
and the Oil Age will end long before the world runs out of oil.”
– Sheikh Ahmed Zaki Yamani

For decades now, Venezuelan oil watchers have been mesmerized by the Faja, the Orinoco Oil Belt, an extra-heavy oil reservoir with riches on a mind-boggling scale. But what if that single-minded obsession is nothing but a strategic blunder?

That’s part of the argument Leopoldo López and Gustavo Baquero make in their book, Venezuela Energética, aiming not only to raise Venezuela’s production to 5 million barrels per day by 2035, but making half of that production from conventional crudes, not Faja extra-heavies.

It’s an ambitious goal and, I think, the right one.

Shifting emphasis back onto conventional crudes would represent a complete reversal of a thirty year trend. See, after inheriting the five Faja projects from the apertura petrolera of the 90s, chavismo focused on further developing the Oil Belt. The grandiloquently named Magna Reserva project saw drilling on a massive scale to prove Venezuela’s position as holder of the greatest oil reserves in the world.

The goal is not only to raise Venezuela’s production to 5 million barrels per day by 2035, but to make half of that production from conventional crudes, not Faja extra-heavies.  

This bit of vanity exploration makes little economic sense nowadays. The cost associated with developing new Faja reserves are twice the current rates delivered through conventional production. New Faja projects would require oil prices above $70 per barrel to justify the massive upstream and upgrading investments required, according to IHS Markit. Of course, the licensing round generated juicy bid bonuses for the government and diversified the geopolitics involved, with none of the blocks awarded going beyond early production schemes.

When you combine the economic challenges of developing new Faja projects with the ongoing global energy revolution forecasting peak demand in 10 to 20 years, it isn’t too hard to see that much of Venezuela’s oil resources will stay underground.

A strategic irrelevance

The Faja was strategically relevant back when there was no end in sight for oil demand and we thought conventional oil was going to run out. That’s no longer the case; according to BP’s Energy Outlook, proven oil reserves globally have more than doubled over the past 35 years (for every barrel of oil consumed, over two new barrels have been discovered). Technically recoverable oil a broader category aiming to measure resources that could be extracted with today’s technology is estimated to be around 2.6 trillion barrels. Around 65% of those resources are located in the Middle East, the former Soviet Union and North America.

This abundance of resources contrasts with slowing growth of demand. Cumulative oil demand for 2035 is expected to be around 0.7 trillion barrels significatively less than the recoverable oil in the Middle East alone. Looking further out to 2050, cumulative global oil demand amounts to less than half of today’s technically recoverable oil resources. In other words, the world has more oil than it will ever need. That means that only the “best” barrels will see the sun.

From a Venezuelan point of view, this means the Orinoco Oil Belt is no longer the be-all, end-all of production growth. In fact, López and Baquero argue that, rather than one país petrolero, we need to become three: a conventional oil powerhouse, an extra-heavy heavyweight and a natural gas hub.

López and Baquero argue that, rather than one país petrolero, we need to become three: a conventional oil powerhouse, an extra-heavy heavyweight and a natural gas hub.

Personally, I’ve long been an advocate of pivoting to natural gas, and López and Baquero share this view, discussing it mostly in terms of decarbonizing the domestic electric grid. In terms of energy exports, they want to shift emphasis onto conventional crudes, those that, unlike the extra-heavy gunk in the Faja, don’t need to be upgraded or “cooked.” They are lighter and more fluid than the gooey stuff on the Belt, making it easier to produce and refine, more profitable to sell, and much less carbon-intensive than extra-heavies.

Because our total reserves are so massive and Faja-centric, we often forget our conventional reserves are huge too; Venezuela has almost as much conventional crude as the U.S. (55 billion), over twice as much as Brazil’s overall reserves (16 billion) and almost four times of those  of Mexico (11 billion). Even if we had zero extra-heavy crude, Venezuela could still be a major oil producer on the back of conventional oil reserves alone.

Why do conventional crudes matter?

In a world where demand for oil is running out faster than oil supply, the real question Venezuela faces is prioritization: which oil to pump out and which oil to leave under the ground. A no-brainer: you want the easier-to-produce stuff, more profitable and less polluting than the energy intensive Faja oil.

And there’s little exploration risk with conventional oil. We know where most of it lies, some is discovered but undeveloped and more can be produced through Enhanced Oil Recovery techniques.

But there’s more. Conventional crude production can also help maximize output from the Faja. Why? Because Faja crude is so viscous and dense that it doesn’t flow naturally through a pipeline. To transport it, you have to mix it with lighter hydrocarbons. Focusing on conventional would put an end to our constant investment in expensive new upgraders to render our oil marketable; and you know what makes even better diluents? The extra-light liquids also known as condensates associated with Natural Gas production. We’re three oil countries, not just one!

Venezuela Energética gets the strategy right. Our obsession with the Faja is outdated; oil seemed scarce and new discoveries were vital, but the world has moved on. The future of the oil industry will center on advantaged barrels, the conventional ones, and López and Baquero see it clearly, a sober perspective on exploiting our potential.

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  1. The folks providing the Energy Outlook developed a business model based on “value over volume.” It’s working out well for them as is the shift to gas.

    Venezuela would also do well to supplement hydro-electric power with more natural gas powered electrical generation for peak energy demand and get rid of the gasoil power plants.

    Lastly, Venezuela should be looking to hydrocarbon development to support the develop of downstream (petrochem) and other industries, building jobs and other sources of forex. The country has spent far too long focusing on petroleum only as a source of dollars. It has much better uses.

    • Venezuela would also do well to supplement hydro-electric power with more natural gas powered electrical generation for peak energy demand and get rid of the gasoil power plants.

      Venezuela Energética has a whole chapter about this!

      We’ll have an post about it.

      • Oh, a whole chapter and a post.
        Lets look at a possible future in 30 years time.
        This bollocks book by a political figure who is past his sell by date, is not worthy of any present time realistic discussion, his political statements do not resonate to the millions of Venezuelans who will not eat in January and February.
        You need to shave your beard and come have a look at the realities on the ground, rather than the echo chamber of the Washington Post.
        Downstream, upstream who gives a damn, It took us 10 years to try to turn around the Iraqi Oil Fields. That situation and product being far superior to both the political and economic scenario that Venezuela faces.
        You peoples naivety is astounding.

  2. The idiots (i.e. communists) running Venezuela are incapable of even feeding the people, let alone carrying out some ambitious investment plan (invest with what – more Russian and Chinese loans)? The skilled personnel left PDVSA long ago and were replaced by incompetent but loyal butt-kissers. Chavez was always babbling on about some incredible new scheme that never came to pass while the marching band played on, and this is no different. As the people leave or die from starvation, lack of medicine, gun violence, and epidemics of easily treated and avoided diseases, the Chavistas still know how to “dream big” as they loot the oil money and prepare their escape to Miami. Remember the motto of the USA Democratic Party: Promise everything to get elected, deliver nothing while you get rich, blame everyone else when it fails. If it is good we did it, if it is bad they did it. Put Exxon in the oil fields and leave them alone and you will see big oil production increases fast.

  3. Projects should be prioritized based on their profitability and long term commercial resilience whether they involve light crudes , heavy crudes or a combination of both . the use of gasoil for power production in a country like Venezuela is criminal , natural gas production has been neglected too long and investments should also include them as part of the menu, not known is that many petrochemical feedstocks actually have certain kinds of natural gas as their main feedstock …….

    The point that not enough attention has been paid to the exploitation of lighter crudes , if confirmed, would require them to be considered priority investments to the extent they are more profitable than heavy crude faja projects …….

    Not all heavy crude faja projects are equally profitable or difficult to develop , some are much more profitable and easy to implement than others , they too should be prioritized together with available light crude projects .(this also applies to fracking projects in the US)

    Value over volume is a cardinal principle of any economic activity ….!!

    The thing is to create a pyramid of all available projects going from the most profitable and commercially resilient to the least profitable , so that investment on the former is prioritized !!

  4. Again,the issue is not what to do about Oil or Natural Gas development. Venezuela has many many other natural resources that can be used for internal development and export.

    The fundamental issue comes back to the underlying cultural issues dating from the time of the Spanish Control. Until one accepts and finds a way to address those issue and make a cultural change the root cause of today’s problems , nothing in Venezuela will change. The country will just continue in the same dictator-democracy loop it has been in since the Spanish were kicked out.

    While it is very easy to write about and discuss until (forever) Oil is not the current biggest concern … Venezuelan’s starving to death from the lack of food, dying from the lack of medical care and medicines, and the talent fleeing the country are the biggest issues. Why are there no CC discussions or recommendations on how to solve these critical issues?

    • This shit about “cultural issues” is so weak.

      Venezuelan culture isn’t any different now than it was in the 1930s-1970s, when it had the best performing economy in the world. It’s not really different from the culture of Colombia, or Costa Rica, or Panama, or Peru, or any of other of the Latin American high performers of the last 20 years.

      It’s such a weak argument it’s really just an excuse. Blaming “cultural issues” is just a way of announcing “I’m a pessimist and I don’t care what the evidence says.”

      • Cultural issues do matter , they provide head winds or tail winds to any project or plan you embark on , except that: they are not fate , there are always people in any country that for whatever reason dont fit into the most common pattern or who exposed to certain incentives can be made to shift their most spontaneous mode of behaviour and who then can be used as a locomotive to pull others away from their ‘default settings’. The thing is not to assumme that just because there is a cultural trend modelling most peoples mentality that means nothing can be done to move towards a different trend…….., but totally ignoring the importance of cultural factors is delusional …..!!

      • It is not a weak argument but based on my one the ground observations personal experience in country, Multinational’s Companies experience in country, and Venezuelan history.

        The 1930’s and beyond grown and good economic times were driven by multinational organizations or 1st generation immigrants coming from Europe after WW II. The biggest economic driving force was the multinational oil companies and the supporting industries that grew up to support the activities of those companies.

        Between 1948 and 1958 the population of Venezuela grew from less than 5 million people to close to 8 million people. More than 1 million people immigrated to Venezuela from Europe Those immigrants and their children accounted for the majority of the population growth. Those immigrants and their culture made a major contribution to the economic growth in the country. Prior to that growth Venezuela was primarily a country of subsistence farmers and wealthy powerful “overlord” families.

        A large very large part of the economy was driven by multinational companies with divisions in Venezuela. Most if not all had foreign nationals managing and controlling the companies from the top down well into the middle and lower management areas. It could be argued that the single exception was the oil industry but again that was run by multinationals until 1974 when it was nationalized. Even after nationalization the multinational oil organizations played a major role in maintaining the oil industry.

        An interesting example to consider is CANTV it was a national company run by Venezuelans. I the early 1980’s they had a back log of requests for more than 5 million phone lines and growing exponentially by the week. It took bribes – pay offs and other approaches to even have a request for a new line considered. After the decision to privatize the company, it only took the multinationals less than 2-3 years to fix CANTV and significantly improve the company. After it was fixed and then re-nationalized and taken over by local management it started to go downhill regressed to its former state.

        What I observed was that the typical Venezuelan wanted to be “El Jefe” but had no idea what being the boss meant.They seems to think that it meant you sat behind the big desk in the big office and “emitiendo Órdenes y Comandos” without having the least bit of understanding on how to actually run a business or department. I understand that this is a gross generalization and that it does necessarily apply to all Venezuelans. Interestingly, I did not observe this behavior in 1st generation immigrants or their children.

        If you have been reading the newspaper and following the situation in Venezuela, you will note that many of those immigrants and their families have returned to their original home country over the last 15 years of the Chavista dictatorship era.They accounted for a very large percentage of Venezuela’s middle class.

        Similarly to the CANTV experiment, once business were nationalized the foreign national or immigrant owners-managers were replace they’ve fallen apart as the “el Jefe” syndrome took over and the “emitiendo Órdenes y Comandos” without having the least bit of understanding on how to actually run a business or department began.

        While all of the countries that you mention share many of the Latin American culture values there history is very different. History leads us to believe that it was the the Venezuelan Generals and Claudios that lead to the the break up of the Grand Columbia.

        • It must be Christmas as i have just seen Jesus.
          At last someone who is prepared to acknowledge the truth.
          The previous successes of Venezuela have been completely parallel to the influence of Foreigners, both business and personal.

          And thats why the future is bleak.
          When your own populace doesnt want to be here, how the hell are you going to import foreign people and businesses.
          Oh i forgot Leopoldo Lopez, the mythical creature that no one has seen, has written a book…….salvation beckons.

    • Pedro Jose, there has been discussion about Venezuelans’ basic needs, and we CC readers are organizing and providing money and essentials. For obvious reasons, we are not posting and talking about it. We don’t want attention.

      If you are outside VZ, let us (me) know. If you are in VZ, we hope to reach you, but it will take time.

  5. ..”the real question Venezuela faces is prioritization: which oil to pump out and which oil to leave under the ground. A no-brainer: you want the easier-to-produce stuff, more profitable and less polluting than the energy intensive Faja oil.”

    Which oil is easier to pump and more difficult to steal? That’s the question. Actually, in Kleptozuela, only the second part matters: Who cares if its tougher-to-produce, as long as it’s easier-to-steal?

  6. Producing more conventional oil sounds wonderful. Why then did the experts at Mobil, Statoil, BP, Conoco, Phillips, Chevron, Texaco and yes, PDVSA, developed the Faja back in the 90s. It was because there was no additional conventional oil available and those Faja projects were profitable with oil at prices around $30 per barrel! So, before we start getting carried away with a dream that there are vast quantities of additional conventional crude remaining to be produced in Venezuela, perhaps it might be worth looking at why it now needs $75 per barrel to make the Faja economic. Did too many takers get too greedy and kill the golden goose?

    • 75$ sounds like an exaggeration. Maybe they are calculating venezuelan salaries and services at the official exchange rate? This is not the North Sea, it’s a savanna, easy to access.

      • Project economics depend on reservoir quality, product quality, project size, cost environment, taxes, oil prices, and the target recovery factor. It’s easier to develop a medium size high quality Carabobo reservoir to get 6% recovery factor. The 20% recovery factor used in Magna Reserva is bogus.

        Using technical reserves is not that useful, because there’s no uniform reserve definition, and the lack of an economic tie in makes them useless.

        Venezuela’s non Faja reserves are also overstated. Some of those figures were booked by enthusiastic pdvsa employees in the early 1980’s, and nobody at the ministry has ever dared challenge them because they have an impact on OPEC quotas, or simple pride and politics won’t allow it. Some reservoirs were assigned ten times the reserves they would have at today’s prices.

  7. “..but totally ignoring the importance of cultural factors is delusional …..!!”

    And yet most people – including Lopez and Baquero – keep ignoring the 2 deadliest and most important cultural factors: “El Pueblo”‘s deep affinity with corruption and abysmal under-education.

    Nothing will work until those fundamental, crucial factors are addressed. Nothing.

  8. Poeta its true culture has a big impact on most , but not on everyone , there are always some that bypass the culture curse , that dont follow the normal trend but march to their own drum beat , then there is parettos law , sometimes a dedicated minority can cause big things to happen if given the chance and resources. Of course you have to allow for the deadweight of those that cant do better , but a dedicated group of well organized teams can make a big difference in how thing develop , that means creating an archipielago of excellence , of top notch organizations with a can do mentality occupying strategic places to move things ahead , you dont try to have everyone advance at the same rythm , many stay behind , but slowly the train starts moving and gradually you see progress that builds up cummulatively little by little pulling the most backward part of society ahead a step at a time ……… !! Corruption can not be suppressed but it can be controlled so that it doesnt stop the process on its tracks , you aim for gradual progress in certain key fronts , dont expect perfection or pristine results , just a slow improvement that builds up , with lots of mistakes and failures in between because thats normal in any human endevour , but without stopping the effort at any time…….!! Thats how you get things done ……

    Today Bangladesh is among the worlds top makers of clothing apparel with hundreds of factories churning all kind of clothes to the worlds markets , it all started very modestly when the rep of a Korean textile company gathered a group of bright entrepeneural but low ranking Bangladeshi workers and sent them to work on Korean textile companies to experience how things were done . When they came back one by one started setting up their own small companies , applying what they had learned in Korea and slowly they grew until they grew into the world class industry it has now become …….

  9. Have you ever tried to convince somebody to change their diet? My mother has diabetes type 2, and was given a diagnosis and treatment consistent with the belief that this this is a progressively degenerative disease with no cure. Yet recent research shows that this “disease” is highly reversible and even curable, based largely on the reduction of consumption of carbohydrates. My mother even recognizes that her condition has improved just by partial implementation of this knowledge, but she finds any excuse (“but the morning TV show said so-and-so food is HEALTHY”) to not fully implement information that will cure her condition, saving her limbs and keeping her eyesight.
    It’s even harder to get a country to change its diet.

    • Because stubborn people like your mother won’t acknowledge the truth until it hits them in the face.

      My mother used to smoke two Red Astor boxes everyday for almost 40 years, until her heart literally skipped a couple of beats almost 12 years ago.

      She NEVER touched another cigarrete ever again.

      When your mother stumbles into the very real risk of losing a limb due to a tiny cut that ends into a gangrenated finger she’ll then acknowledge that the diabetes is a very real risk and not simply a “crazy old lady tale”

  10. Since 2010 I have been saying that the reserves of the Faja have been arbitrarily inflated and that they are not what the regime claims they are, see: https://plumacandente.blogspot.com/2010/03/fraude-en-la-faja-del-orinoco-pdvsa.html and that the heavy oils of the Faja will largely remain under ground. I call this the Florinda Syndrome, after the poem of Andres Eloy, the girl who refused to accept suitors and is now older and without much demand, see: http://lasarmasdecoronel.blogspot.com/2015/02/mucho-combustible-fosil-se-quedaria-en.html and https://www.minuto30.com/historia-barriles-gustavo-coronel/288632/
    I am glad to see that this topic has been taken up by Leopoldo Lopez and Gustavo Baquero in his book. Yesterday’s blasphemies become the dogmas of tomorrow!

  11. We must accept that a big chunk of the population will not be salvageable and that the results will never be perfect and that at best whatever improvements are accomplished will for a long time not have a transformative impact on the whole of the society , and yet unless one starts the process nothing gets done !!

    That is the bane of western culture a hubristic belief in the capacity of nobly inspired human beings to achieve utopian perfection if they just are brave and resourceful enough …….thats certainly never the case , but yes even with a culture that doesnt always help lots can be done to gradually improve things so they become comfortable and tolerable …and with a bit of luck even sattisfactory !!

  12. Corruption happens in Venezuela because authority is not recognized easily. The reasons Chavez is loved and the famous caudillos is because they don’t tell people what to do because they have an office or a badge, but because they prove to hace balls, or bravery, and share spoils. Best among equals rather than bosses.

    We are a free people in ways the first world and their but kissers cannot understand.

    I would keep that. And my countrymen have shown that they would too, even if they have to starve.

    If you want a decent economy, things that work, you’re gonna have to find a way to do it with people that won’t accept authority.

    It’s not the culture that needs changing.

    I have never seen people work harder than they do here. We are not lazy.

    Figure it out or leave us to our fate. Live free or starve.

    • You’re joking, right?

      Just look how many days on average, annually, a Venezuelan works.

      If Chavez or Peres took a shit and declared a 5-day holiday for it, you guys happily took those days off. Paid days off, of course.

      If you’ve never seen people work harder than they do in Venezuela, you’ve never left Venezuela. Or didn’t pay attention when you did.

    • “I have NEVER seen people work harder than they do here. We are not lazy”

      Have you ever been to the USA, Canada, South Korea, Japan, China, India? I have and another 70+ countries. I think together that is 65% of the worlds population, that work lightyears harder/longer beyond most. (yes there are many, many other countries to include)

      I do not doubt your statement, as I have never been to VZ

      But hard work consistently thrives when two things occur. First, when that hard labor produces income for the hard worker, and not for the state. Secondly, when that hard work income, exceeds the income that is given by the state for free, or obtained by fraud, graft, corruption, or affiliation.

      Reading CC for 2+ years, the consensus seems to indicate, that only a fraction of VZ population profits by working hard, in comparison to those who do not.

    • “We are a free people in ways the first world and their but kissers cannot understand.”
      Free to stand in line for a CLAP bag?

      “If you want a decent economy, things that work, you’re gonna have to find a way to do it with people that won’t accept authority.”
      Quite the contrary. Venezuelan people are too eager to accept authority, trust their leaders, and not think critically. How else would you explain their agreeing to stop the resistance this last summer? How else could they accept being led by Maduro/MUD? The country could use a little (a lot) of civil (and uncivil) disobedience.

      As far as getting things done with people that won’t accept authority, that is not a problem. The problem is getting things done by people who have no sense of responsibility and no self-respect. If you are hired to do a job you are supposed to do that job. If you are asked to do it in a month you will be expected to finish in a month. Nobody wants to hear sob stories at the end of the month about why the job could not be done. It was your responsibility to plan for any contingencies, and if you cannot do that you should not take the job. Those qualities, responsibility and self-respect, are very scarce among the vast majority of Venezuelan people. That’s the reason they voted for Chavez and too many of them still vote for Maduro.

      “It’s not the culture that needs changing.”
      If you are happy with the current situation you don’t need to change a thing.

      “Live free or starve.”
      According to your post you are happy to do both.

      • No majority voted for the rotten garbage in 1998, that’s the first lie that must be debunked.

        chavismo won the power with barely 30% of the votes, and hit its bottom (and stayed there) at less than 12% in 2005 and about less than 10% in 2017 in the massive fraud of the last fakelections.

    • Best among equals, who exactly loves Chavez?, mate this is not a platform were we dont speak ill of Chavez. That forced coercion doesnt work.
      Lets see how you feel when your own Chavista children are ripping your throat out when the food runs out.
      Now sleep well as the new year beckons, and you can face the reality of your own delusions.
      The christmas grinch is alive.

  13. On a random note, may I suggest to also sell the CC shirts as v-necks for women? I would get them in a heartbeat even if at a higher price.

  14. Average Venezuelans have a problem not just with abstract impersonal authority , but with abstract impersonal rules that regiment life, that impose strict limits and burdens on their spontaneous usually disorganized, happy go lucky, easy going, laid back, merrily irresponsible behaviour , they have a problem with self discipline, with punctuality , with honouring commitments and promises,

    Hofsteds cultural dimension studies include a binary concept which we might translate as self indulgence vs self demanding types of collective personality , we Venezuelans rank among the countries with the highest rank of self indulgence . Self demanding cultures idolize order, discipline , self control, almost obsessive respect for impersonal and abstract rules and authority , for punctuality , for keeping promises and honouring obligations , for comformity with formal and highly elaborate social conventions, for methodical hard work……..The German and Japanese cultural ethos comes to mind .

    Self indulgent cultures are the opposite , they do respect authority but only where they can emotionally and personally identify with it , so they feel that that which embodys that authority represents an aggrandized version of themselves , they like their lives to be free from regimentation , rules , restrictions , burdensome obligations , they like feeling free to indulge in exhuberant fun filled activities, they like irreverence , informality , leg pulling , improvising rather than following protocols , they are not individualist but very social , except that they socialize at a clannish or small group level , thats why we find belonging to a clique is so important in Venezuela, to networks of mutual support groups who feel affiliated ona personal level to some collective identity , we are a country of roscas , cogollos , cliques which provide us a short cut to navigating the shoals of life in a dysfunctional society . In these self indulgent cultures where abstract impersonal rules and authority generate feelings of disdain and rejection …..where personal cunning and unscrupulous gaming of peoples credulity is admired ( the picaro mentality) , where chaos and disorder dominate social life ……corruption thrives because there are few barriers to taking advantage of the opportunities it offers ….

    However within a self indulgent society there are always social groups and organizations with their own cultures , with cultures , which run counter to the most generalized ones , which are self demanding , and disciplined , and take pride in achieving things through hard effort and application…..!! When business organizations from self demanding, rule respectful cultures settle in Venezuela they act as magnets that attract Venezuelans that are naturally drawn to life in self demanding cultures , that have a self demanding ethos……, those organization as time passes colonize important swaths of the local population , teaching them their values , their mentality , their way fo doing things , of thinking about things… That probably the reason why Pdvsa remained for 25 years a model of rational business activity amids the usual chaotic and corrupt milieu that prevailed in so many public venezuelan organizations. The culture they had was inherited from the culture of business organizations from self demanding , rule respectful countries after some 50 years of continous and pervasive presence in the country……


    • “thats why we find belonging to a clique is so important in Venezuela, to networks of mutual support groups who feel affiliated on a personal level to some collective identity”

      Interesting observation.

      I was warned about this and saw it play out even in businesses during my time in country. I was told that people in Venezuela do not work for the company they only “worked” for their manager. So, you never wanted to lose even a low level manager as it would result in the loss of the entire group of employees under the manager. When a manager left for a new organization he would take most of the department with him. Only a few employees (Outside of the clique) would not be offered position in the new organization. Those remaining understood that they would be replaced by the new employees coming in with the new manager; so they too would move on to another company before being “kicked out” by the incoming manager.


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